I love this Jordan. It shows just how we are being controlled, lied to, and forced into some alternate way of living. My question, however, is what do we do about this? How do we get this information into the mainstream for people to see? How do we start to shift the mindset so people demand a return to normal?
I have thought about this also. There are 3 main factors I see keeping the panic porn going. 1)MSM alarmism 2)Alarmism from public health officials and "experts" on social media. 3)Government policies that prevent us from returning to normal life, thus keeping many people in the "there's reason to be afraid still" mindset.
We can't do anything about #1, but some actions can be taken to combat #2 and #3. Trump has been pushing back increasingly boldly against Fauci and the panic porn pushers, but that won't influence too many people because he's not widely trusted on this issue. Even the CDC Director and Fauci saying schools should be reopened hasn't stymied the fear of school reopening doom.
Therefore the main factor I see ending the panic is simply resuming normal activities. School, sports, movies, dining, etc. That is where the battle must be fought primarily. Once we win one of those big battles where the data is 100% on our side (say schools reopening), it'll create momentum to win the other ones, because once people see there's no doomsday from reopening schools (or the other activities), only the most hardcore doomers will still be pushing panic porn. The previously rational people will breathe a sigh of relief and return to reason.
All you can do individually is share the facts about this virus with people, in person and on social media. Especially share data from official government reports and large, conclusive studies when possible. For example, the public health agencies of Sweden and Finland produced a report that concluded school closures had no effect on covid19 cases in children, and teachers had no higher risk of being infected than members of other professions. Here's a link to that report: https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/contentassets/c1b78bffbfde4a7899eb0d8ffdb57b09/covid-19-school-aged-children.pdf
The best case scenario is once schools reopen in red states and no doomsday occurs, governors and mayors in blue states/cities will be forced to follow suit, even if for no other reason than not wanting to look foolish. As Charles McKay famously said, "men, it has been well said, think herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one."
I love this. Thanks Jon! I can only hope we get back to normal and quick. People are devastated, depressed, suicidal, and angry. This nonsense needs to end. I like your ideas because that does seem logical. But then again, we have everyone running around in masks thinking the world will end.
Haven't schools in the U.S already opened and we've seen reports that kids are getting infected. Montana, Alabama (I believe). I'm totally on your side in this, but it seems that kids are getting infected and it's pushing the narrative that schools shouldn't open. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm here for a discussion, not a fight.
I haven't seen those reports, but I'll take your word for it. I don't know of anyone who is saying that 100% of kids are immune to infection from the virus. Contrary to the MSM narrative, it's actually a good thing for kids to be infected with the coronavirus, because that will speed up herd immunity with virtually no impact on illness and mortality. The data (like the report I shared above) show that kids have a low probability of both becoming ill from the virus and transmitting it to teachers, which makes reopening schools a no-brainer.
Good point Matt. Yeah, I believe some kids do get it, but that's normal. The reality is they aren't dying and they aren't getting very sick. It's a cold virus. It's not the plague and it's not HIV or something that we had many times before without all this panic, masks, etc. It's just a new cold virus. We have 4 other strains, this is #5. Unfortunately, it's all political and while this is all happening, our freedoms are being taken away one by one. We should be ANGRY and we should be speaking out.
I was blind to all this in the beginning. I took everything being told to me as the truth, give or take a little, everyone should always be a little skeptical. I quickly found myself going along with the narrative. This wasn't my first rabbit hole, but it did lead to being here, wondering the truth about covid. I have come to realization that this is a "political" virus. I agree that this is just another cold/respiratory illness. I've seen it compared to tuberculosis. Anyways, going back to your point, I think it only takes a handful of students getting sick to fuel the fire. It's easy to pull at the heart strings of a parent when you fear for your child. Fear. We're constantly controlled by it. I could go on, but in short, all it took was for a student to get it and once again the narrative and fear can be pushed. I just hope more people wake up like I did before it's too late.
Well in this country the blue states along with the super biased leftist media is doing it all for one reason while lying about the numbers of deaths. All so they can keep things in chaos hoping people will vote for a man with dementia over a man who they hate. This is all about politics and power.
Ok, Peter Harris has been officially ID'd as a Troll. Apparently, I have more than answered his questions, so he has resorted to nothing more than a spouting more nonsense. Still no answers to my questions, however. He brings nothing to the table and provides no empirical evidence or data. He has used the euphemism of a Court Jester and it suits him. I will defer to someone with a capacity for a data based, cogent, conversation. Checkmate!
New Zealand had the benefit of being remote islands with plenty of warning. The "better results" you speak of came down to good luck and shutting down international entry. What will happen when NZ re-opens? How long can it remain closed to the rest of the world? You talk about "rigor, integrity and ... lies by omission" but offer no rebuttal to the facts raised in the article. Show us the "lies of omission" - put up or shut up.
Im in NZ. We are in lock down AGAIN today!! Of any country we are privileged have the best possible geographic., you can't do what we have else where and shouldn't preach it.
And now we hide here like frightened little children, good on Sweden for facing up and "growing a pair".
We were first told back in March that we would be "flattening the curve" .. But then the strategy changed to "Complete elimination".
I knew this would be doomed to fail.
I am amazed at how long it takes people to realize that this the worst strategy there could possibly be ! I repeat, the WORST !
I find it so stupid that I have either gone insane or I must have been asleep somehow for several decades and I now live in Idiocracy (see the movie).
This strategy means that every time the virus re-emerges, it triggers a lockdown response to eliminate it again.. and this is repeated as often as needed.
What is going to happen to the society if we go into a new lockdown every 3 months ??
We have already gone from 20% GDP debt ratio to 60% in just 4 weeks back in March for NOTHING !!! And now we repeat the same experiment..
I guess most people need to be going hungry or have their loved ones go into misery before realizing how insane, and criminal, the political response to this whole thing is.
I’m in New Zealand. We’re in lockdown again and can no longer be seen as a success. That hard lockdown has resulted in many other deaths including suicides. They’re beating each other up panic buying at the supermarkets. Mass exodus out of Auckland where they’re all being turned back by police checkpoints. It’s a mess!
There are some indications that there has been community transmission going on here for quite some time. (RT)PCR testing does not even begin to show the full picture as you will well know if you've been paying attention to anything scientific but it appears you might have just been relying on our simplistic media (or worse, syndicated global media) for your perspectives.
That's all you can manage? You "tackle" my first point with one word "hilarious". You really need to show your working for that conclusion but I'm not expecting much from a man who cannot offer a rebuttal to the facts in the article. Meanwhile, NZ is back into lockdown proving that the lockdown "success" was a temporary illusion.
Actually I will agree with you here in a sense. NZ doesn't have land borders so much easier to isolate. However, the NZ approach to everything is "rules are pretty much optional" which translates into a general high level of incompetence everywhere in society with very few (but notable) exceptions. So indications are, for example, that the latest outbreak was because of relaxed approach to border control and protocols. If so, no surprises there.
Peter Harris .The truth hurts your world view shattered you have been mugged by the black hats...wake up you have been played for a fool. More people died last year from covid18.
Vietnam had a lockdown but moved very quickly out of lockdown when it became evident that SARS-COV-2 was nothing like what we imagined it could be at the outset. Vietnam has had no recorded deaths, so better than NZ.
And Vietnam has 90m people. NZ <5m.
And Vietnam has long shared borders with other countries with different approaches.
They are basically done with SARS-COV-2 but we here in NZ are not. We're throwing money at what many are now realising is an unsustainable fantasy of a policy, based on faith-based mythology from a few personality-experts the government has thrown its weight behind. Complete delusion.
How you make such unsubstantiated and so obviously misguided comments about NZ is I must say pretty interesting. Maybe something that runs very deep?
Madrid wih half swedens population had a severe lockdown . Result was 8.000 dead , i.e. 2000 more than Sweden. NYC. less than Sweden's population has had 23.000 dead. Lombardia in italy about the same population as sweden 16.000 dead.
I’m sorry, sir, but you’re failing to make any converts with your accusations and ad hominem and demands for evidence when you’ve offered little to nothing substantive in that regard. It may serve you to adopt a posture of humility and a willingness to learn from those with whom you disagree.
Merely mentioning New Zealand does not constitute substantive evidence. I shouldn't have to point that out, because your comments seem to wish us to believe you are well versed in reason and debate. Clearly, you're not.
"Ha ha ha... pot-kettle."
This kind of response suggests your cortical cap is not involved here. You're all amygdala, or maybe just brain stem. Come at me when you've got something to say that even approaches interesting.
Okay but where is the explanation to what exactly Sweden did? You say they didn’t have lockdowns or masks so the virus just... disappeared? I’m not a journalist, your right, but all I read was you put really scary adjectives in front of organizations and some outlandish accusations that have little to no backing.
Wi did just those things that was evident to be long term effective. Other countries did a lot more, for no good reason other than to show political strength, caused by panic, resulting in economic damange that they now look forward to be compensated for - from Sweden, amongst others.
Look up Michael Levitt's work on this. The virus spreads until it infects all susceptible individuals and then dies out. We understood phenomena. If you do stop it before it gets into the population (NZ, S Korea etc), you can suppress (flatten the curve), but cannot be stopped until it runs its natural course through the population. If you read any of the papers that came out when this first emerged, this dynamic was well understood and the only feasible strategies were to slow down the infection rate so health care wasn't overrun and protect the vulnerable. Most regions failed miserably in the latter objective.
The organizations ARE very "scary" precisely because the "outlandish accusations" happen to be true and have incredibly SOLID evidence behind them. The problem for most, including it would appear you, is that they get their (dis)information from the MSM, which is totally and completely controlled by those behind this plandemic. The pandemic we are now suffering with, and which has caused irreparable damage, is not of a virus. It is a pandemic of false narratives hiding behind a virus being used to destroy economies and the rights and finances of the citizens of this world...considered to be sheople by those behind the plandemic. If you're looking for truth, this is a good site to investigate, but there are many more alternative news sites where you can find all the information you might want or need to find. Perhaps Jordan could list them, but I don't want to presume on his site.
Incredibly Solid evidence like "hydroxychloroquine causes heart problems". I used it for three years in Viet Nam and my heart is fine. I understand that it wouldn't be fair to the globalists and big pharma to come up with a cheap effective cure that would destroy their multi-billion dollar vaccine business.
"incredibly SOLID evidence" AGAINST THEM...ie, that they, the WHO and CDC, are part and parcel of the globalist predator class, controlled by them and by BigPharma that makes hundreds of liability-free $$$$$$ from their vaccines. And yes, HCQ is very safe. I am a physician and had many patients with rheumatoid arthritis and lupus on it. On the other hand, when we talk about treating covid19, we are talking about a virus THAT WAS NEVER EVEN ISOLATED!! So what exactly is being treated? And exactly what are the vaccines being created to defend against? From all i can see, the genetic material extracted from symptomatic patients in China looks identical to normal exosomes that are created by any normal immune system in response to stress or attack. If so, then the vaccines would be gearing up our bodies against something that is NORMAL!
Umm, I provided evidence for you and I’m a minority scientist and not Republican or far-right. Put your emotions and politics aside and let us deal with this critical life threatening issue in a pure objective sense. What does it matter about someone’s party affiliation when this thing hurt all communities and threatens minority communities the most. If you do not provide any evidence on your own then it is apparent who has the cognitive dissonance.
Part of Sweden's success in allowing a less severe lock-down must be attributed to its public health policy encouraging Vitamin D supplementation. However, the most recent published studies reveal that the supplementation rates for the elderly in aged-care have been less than 20%, meaning that many at risk old people most at risk have vitamin D deficiency - a major risk factor for bad outcomes including deaths from viral respiratory infections.
Success is a relative term. When compared to the US, the Swedes have been brilliant. When compared to countries similar to themselves, they have been woeful.
Sweden has had 571 deaths per million people, Denmark 107, Norway 47.
If Sweden is a success, than surely the other Scandinavian countries are outstanding successes.
The BBC reports:
>>Various forecasts predict the Swedish economy will still shrink by about 5% this year.
That is less than other countries hit hard by Covid-19, such as Italy, Spain and the UK, but still similar to the rest of Scandinavia.
Sweden's unemployment rate of 9% remains the highest in the Nordics, up from 7.1% in March.<<
They have had more people die than the other Scandinavian countries, but their economy is no better off. Schachtel's article is deliberately misleading.
Wow, you must be some kind of shill or something. Or you just can't face the fact that Sweden didn't follow the New World Order protocol. Nor the Communist U.N or the De population loving WHO. And because they didn't play the farce scheme, you want to invalidate them, and anyone who states the positive aspects of not fear mongering or falling into this ELITE trap. Wow, you must feel real smart.
>And because they didn't play the farce scheme, you want to invalidate them,
No, I don't. What I am trying to do is to point out that they have allowed almost 5000 people to die *unnecessarily*. See below for the discussion. Do please note the section that quotes the architect of Sweden's scheme, Anders Tegnell.
Well, I agree with you there, I don't think anybody has handled this correctly because I believe that it's possibly just a ( DIFFERENT STRONGER FOR SOME AGES AND COMPRISED HEALTH ) strain of Sars2. That said, there are other treatments out there that could have saved thousands of lives whom ACTUALLY had C19 and the un necessary deaths in senior homes and others that passed because they couldn't even get their cancer treatments etc because of the farce of the hospitals being full and keeping them vacant for that rush of millions of sick people, which never happened. Between treating the people wrong and faulty tests, I believe they have achieved what they set out to do. Have more deaths un necessarily, create and continue their fear porn, and an added bit of de population in the process and finally hide all the money they've stolen and wasted from the hard working people so they can do their wonderful re set. So, it's sad all around. Sorry for being nasty, it just breaks my heart and makes me upset at the lies and shows and malpractice and pseudoscience these monsters have done. :)
Note to all: Most deaths in Sweden from COVID19 (60+%) were in care homes for the eldely.
Swedish care homes are predominantly much larger buildings with 100s of residents to a building compared to Denmark's many more care homes which are smaller in size with only a few dozen residents per building. Therefore any infection in Swedish care homes is going
to result in a larger impact on fatality rates than in Danish care homes. This gross error in judgement has subsequently been acknowledged by Swedish authorites now. This is the
key to understanding the disparity in Nordic countries regarding COVID19 fatality rates.
No lockdown means herd immunity faster for a virus going through a population.
The key to understanding herd immunity is that the proportion of the population that has to be infected by the disease, and retain antibodies, is given by the formula
% = 100 - (100/Ro)
where Ro is the infection rate on an unprotected population, ie the average number of people that each infected person will transmit the disease to.
The Ro value for Covid19 is around 2.2. Do the maths and 70% of the population has to acquire, and retain, the Covid antibodies before there can be herd immunity.
Studies show that people who have been infected start to lose their antibodies after as little as 90 days. There will be no herd immunity, John. Surveys in the US have 30% of respondents saying that they will not use a vaccine that is offered.
Check this from Lancet on the number of Stockholm residents with antibodies:
>COVID-19—a very visible pandemic
... community estimates range from 7·5% to 10%, and suggest considerable clustering.<
There is no end game possible until people understand the full extent of the problem, and the alternatives that are available.
If the majority of the people are in favour of a single approach, then I would see that their Government is obliged to go with it. If the virus persists for years, as some suggest, perhaps this will become an election issue.
So - education, then choosing.
One point that nobody here has commented on is that we are only part way through the epidemic. Questions that cannot be resolved at this stage are:
* Are we at the end of the first wave and will the subsequent events be milder? That is the best case, but is it true?
* Are the people who have recovered from the disease going to suffer any side effects from having had it? There are reports that up to half of patients treated for the virus in intensive care units (ICUs) may be left with ‘persistent physical, cognitive and psychological impairments’, including chronic fatigue.
If this is substantiated, it may influence the debate.
I do admire your use of emotive terms to try and influence the discussion. "Live in perpetual fear". Good one!
I live in New Zealand. Here, people are starting to realise they are staring at a future of perpetual fear, created by idiotic and short-term politicians.
My sense is SARS-COV-2 will be with us indefinitely. Elimination/isolation is utterly unsustainable.
Bovine excrement. This one slip does not invalidate their other work, as you know.
>the Lancet disinformation campaign against HQCl+zinc is responsible for millions of deaths
We will see. The hcqtrial paper looks interesting, and but we await to subsequent work. In Australia four studies into HCQ were initiated; three were abandoned due to indeterminate results, the remaining study is proceeding.
>>A gold standard, multicentre, randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial to determine whether the drug hydroxychloroquine is an effective prevention against COVID-19 is now underway in Australia.<<
And *you* are ignoring the fact that whereas Norway and Denmark, combined population 11.3 million, have had 880 Covid 19 deaths between them, Sweden, with 10 million people, have had 5766. The difference is equivalent to the death toll in 9/11 plus 6 fully laden jets crashing.
I await your explanation for the relatives of the deceased of why being "normal" again is better than their loved ones still being alive.
Bwahahaha. You do realize that EVERY aspect of society has tradeoffs in terms of lives, right? In the USA over 200,000 people a year die from preventable medical error. Kids are killed in family (backyard) pools more often than from gunshots. The number of people killed and injured on roadways is staggering.
Do we shut down the highway system to respect the families of those who died in traffic accidents?
So why should we shut down an entire economy, churches, etc, because of a few flu deaths?
Exactly. People have lost their minds. 80,000 people die each week in the United States. People die. If we were concerned about flu deaths, then we should all just end it right here and now because this is a fact of life. Should we shut down driving? What about smokers? Why can they be "free" to smoke and get lung disease so we have to protect them? Also, the antibodies is a non-starter because no matter what you get, antibodies go away....that's why you have T-CELLS....it remembers. Funny how the body already knows how to deal with this.
A strong immune system is the best "cure" that we have. Live healthy, exercise, eat a balanced diet, get enough sleep and DON'T listen to the nay-sayers.
You obviously have no sense of statistics or how diseases spread. The dynamics in larger populations, especially of high density, are quite different. Other factors such as mobility, cluster scale, etc. are all highly relevant, as are the nature of inward and outgoing travel. A couple of quite random (in the sense of timing, etc.) differences at the beginning of such an epidemic translate to potentially huge outcomes between regions and countries. For example, one region may have a different age demographic and therefore massively skew outcomes.
Gosh, what a put down. I should emphasise that this is your opinion, and you are fully entitled to it, but it is no more, and no less valid that mine.
What I intended, but perhaps did not adequately convey, was to give a perspective of just how many people 5000 is. Please note that the numerical comparison is completely true, 5000 is the entire 9/11 plus 6 fully laden jets.
Check this, from a person who I think, but certainly cannot prove, could be one of your soulmates:
>
Joe WhiteAug 12
Bottom line- Even if 5 MILLION DIE, out of 8 BILLION, whats the problem?
I do admire your concise summation of the situation.
But, and this is a big one, can we agree that the Swedes have lost nearly 5000 more citizens than the combined tallies of Denmark and Norway? Are we also agreed that the Swedish economy all of these three economies are predicted to take a 7% hit to GDP, meaning that there has been only pain from Sweden's approach, and no gain?
And can we also agree that the architect of Sweden's policy, Anders Tegnell, has begun to rethink his 'right' strategy?
Now, Tegnell has for the first time admitted publicly that the strategy is resulting in too many deaths.
"Clearly, there is potential for improvement in what we have done in Sweden," he said.<
As for 'Swedes have more freedom', check this:
> with many other European Union countries now rolling back their lockdowns after appearing to bring COVID-19 under control, there are signs that Sweden may be left behind. That includes the freedom of movement of its citizens, as some EU countries restrict access to people coming from what are deemed high-risk COVID zones.<
Any thoughts on these aspects, or have we exhausted your repertoire?
>Less deaths in Denmark and Norway proves nothing.
Damn! And here I was thinking that fewer (not less) deaths meant a more effective treatment. Now I think on it, I still believe that.
"When the whole world is rushing towards a cliff, the one running opposite is seen as insane."
How philosophical. An alternative would be, 'When the whole country is rushing towards safety, the one running opposite is the one that wants to vote for Trump'
We don't have the data quite yet but it will be very little different. Either less than in the previous years, seasonally-speaking, the same or not much more.
Also, consider that if a year has lower deaths than average, the population susceptible to flu the following year is larger, so one would expect a spike in deaths comparatively-speaking.
Comparing deaths is a fools game, except against background all-cause deaths over time for specific countries, which allows one to filter out the impact that SARS-COV-2 had that was not usual.
The EUROMOMO stats will soon provide a much fuller picture and my sense is that this will show that this virus had nowhere near, like next level nowhere near, the impact that so-called experts everywhere (except Sweden) predicted.
>But it’s obvious you are yet another disingenuous ideologue, virtue Signaling without any evidence to support your constantly moving political goal posts.
Am I keeping you from Brietbart?
My goalposts have remained in their original position. The Swedish approach has produced
. no economic benefit
. more personal freedom in their own country, possibly less in adjoining countries.
. many times more deaths, or, as you endearingly termed them, drains on their [The Swedish] already burdened social security system.
I am embarrassed to be on the same blog as you.
But ..
You will need more than personal attacks to alter the above.
When u loss ur job in New Zealand u still have healthcare...when u lose ur job in America you either go into extreme debt or die. Our politician don’t care about us ... they’re flipping greedy ....that’s the problem.
If almost 6000 death & one of the highest death rate per capita in the world is a success, lets wait for the 2nd wave. Sweden will be a super duper success
Read the article. I acknowledge that they did not sufficiently protect their senior care centers, which account for the majority of the COVID deaths in Sweden. The general population, which would be impacted by their open society model, was largely not harmed by the virus, proving their strategy sufficient in fighting the pandemic.
Sweden has 300,000 more people then Michigan and has lower deaths and cases. Michigan had the strictest lockdown. Why aren't the numbers drastically different?
Why indeed. Guess Whitmer's science that guides policy not so scientific after all. Some numbers are drastically different...unemployment Michigan 14.8% and Sweden 9.3% for June. Freedom and long term mental health much better in Sweden I dare say.
We seem to have a new strain of flu every that "requires" a new vaccine. They won't let us use hydroxychloroquine. I wonder why. Is it possible that they know that HCQ would control all of the viruses and we wouldn't need any of their expensive "vaccines"?
They well be fine because second wave will be less because there population will have developed more heard immunity. But having said that time will tell!
Simplistic. Sweden was unlucky to experience a massive influx of infections via people returning to Stockholm where there is a huge population of foreign-origin Swedish residents, many of whom are Somali, who are at high disk for SARS-COV-2, and live in a relatively dense, modern European city. There are a number of factors that combined here with the result that by the time Sweden (and the world) realised what was happening, this virus had already deeply penetrated the Stockholm area.
Additionally, at the same time the virus was transferred to aged care. Swedish care homes are significant in scale and the ethnically-diverse worker population. The relatively long incubation meant that again Sweden was playing catch up and by the time old, frail people become symptomatic, there is very little that can be done. This is why in every country that has seasons, influenza takes a significant number of people each year, despite humans having lived with influenza forever.
Resist the temptation to judge prematurely: in a year or two, Ratgazz might look back and realise that Sweden learned quickly from its very obvious (especially in hindsight) mistakes and decided on a longer-term strategy than pretty much any other country. That takes courage and determination, not least on behalf of the people steering Sweden's overall strategy.
I think we saved worldwide more lives (young lives) in traffic alone thanks to the lockdowns then the average 82 years olds deaths saved during the period......
In Malaysia alone they probably saved 3000 during six months. Way above the 600 plus that died in the country of Covid so far. Then a huge number of people died of untreated or delayed life threatening ailments and suicides (many still to come when finally all the smaller and bigger businesses fall over, and the people are sacked) Stock market crash imminent, no doubt, etc etc.
Clinics, hospitals, quite a few also bankrupt, even doctors and nurses out of work.
Well done all the slick politician policymakers and hangers on! There was not a lot of common sense loud voiced opposition. Very human indeed. Maybe Trump was right all the way.
Oepsie! Did I say something wrong now???? Naaaah. I said maybe......
Hello Sam, Thank you for your comments, which may be valid, although somewhat condecending which I shan't stoop to. 'Some Studies' is nebulous and lacking in context with possibly many other such data which may contradict 'some studies.' Hence I'm not convinced by your reply without discussing it with micro biology professionals. On a wider point pertaining to the danger
of COVID19 (not yet isolated via the Robert Koch postulates) I fear people cannot see the woods for the trees. COVID19 is nowhere near the danger it is hyped up to be, please see expert analyses as follows below:
>Hello Sam, Thank you for your comments, which may be valid, although somewhat condecending which I shan't stoop to.
If you reread what you have written, John, you will discover that you already have.
Let's just move on. You have cited a number of facetube references. Sadly, I only ever look at reviewed papers. So, thanks, but no thanks. The scientific world is full of enough barrow pushers, and I need to have a peer review the content before bothering. Not saying that they, your references, are wrong, but you will acknowledge that you cannot guarantee that they are correct.
For details on the meaning of the Ro value, google this:
What Is R0? Gauging Contagious Infections
Note that the figure for Covid19 has been upgraded from 2.2 to 5.7, putting the percentage of the people who would have to be protected from the virus to 85+% for herd immunity to occur.
And, and, your original post contained:
>>Swedish care homes are predominantly much larger buildings with 100s of residents to a building compared to Denmark's many more care homes which are smaller in size with only a few dozen residents per building. Therefore any infection in Swedish care homes is going
to result in a larger impact on fatality rates than in Danish care homes. <<
I am thinking that this is a product of your vivid imagination. I am afraid that it is a case of cite references or retract. Please, please, no youtube musings.
Bottom line- Even if 5 MILLION DIE, out of 8 BILLION, whats the problem? 60 MILLION died just in Word War 2. In fact it was to fight for freedom and against a "One World Order". It did not DESTROY the world economy, cause poverty or creat totalitarian control or loss of freedom like the Cov-Con job has been designed to do. End of every argument. PS the UN was based on Hitlers design for world domination.
Oh..and YES , if it means losing a friend or loved one, so be it. They are are like brave soldiers and better dead than imprisoned as a slave to Totalitarian Communism. I have lost 4 friends and family DUE TO The LOCKDOWN (cancelled hospital treatments etc). Where are stats on the effect of the "CURE" vs the Virus? We saw the same attempt with swine flu..attempted world ending virus...biggest Medical hoax since Covid19..and surprise..exactly the same people involved
i want to move there.. obviously that's just wishful thinking maybe if I were in 20's I would have.. but too late now.. WHY can't US do the same.. why has our government sold its people to Big Pharma..
I love this Jordan. It shows just how we are being controlled, lied to, and forced into some alternate way of living. My question, however, is what do we do about this? How do we get this information into the mainstream for people to see? How do we start to shift the mindset so people demand a return to normal?
I have thought about this also. There are 3 main factors I see keeping the panic porn going. 1)MSM alarmism 2)Alarmism from public health officials and "experts" on social media. 3)Government policies that prevent us from returning to normal life, thus keeping many people in the "there's reason to be afraid still" mindset.
We can't do anything about #1, but some actions can be taken to combat #2 and #3. Trump has been pushing back increasingly boldly against Fauci and the panic porn pushers, but that won't influence too many people because he's not widely trusted on this issue. Even the CDC Director and Fauci saying schools should be reopened hasn't stymied the fear of school reopening doom.
Therefore the main factor I see ending the panic is simply resuming normal activities. School, sports, movies, dining, etc. That is where the battle must be fought primarily. Once we win one of those big battles where the data is 100% on our side (say schools reopening), it'll create momentum to win the other ones, because once people see there's no doomsday from reopening schools (or the other activities), only the most hardcore doomers will still be pushing panic porn. The previously rational people will breathe a sigh of relief and return to reason.
All you can do individually is share the facts about this virus with people, in person and on social media. Especially share data from official government reports and large, conclusive studies when possible. For example, the public health agencies of Sweden and Finland produced a report that concluded school closures had no effect on covid19 cases in children, and teachers had no higher risk of being infected than members of other professions. Here's a link to that report: https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/contentassets/c1b78bffbfde4a7899eb0d8ffdb57b09/covid-19-school-aged-children.pdf
The best case scenario is once schools reopen in red states and no doomsday occurs, governors and mayors in blue states/cities will be forced to follow suit, even if for no other reason than not wanting to look foolish. As Charles McKay famously said, "men, it has been well said, think herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, one by one."
I love this. Thanks Jon! I can only hope we get back to normal and quick. People are devastated, depressed, suicidal, and angry. This nonsense needs to end. I like your ideas because that does seem logical. But then again, we have everyone running around in masks thinking the world will end.
Haven't schools in the U.S already opened and we've seen reports that kids are getting infected. Montana, Alabama (I believe). I'm totally on your side in this, but it seems that kids are getting infected and it's pushing the narrative that schools shouldn't open. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm here for a discussion, not a fight.
I haven't seen those reports, but I'll take your word for it. I don't know of anyone who is saying that 100% of kids are immune to infection from the virus. Contrary to the MSM narrative, it's actually a good thing for kids to be infected with the coronavirus, because that will speed up herd immunity with virtually no impact on illness and mortality. The data (like the report I shared above) show that kids have a low probability of both becoming ill from the virus and transmitting it to teachers, which makes reopening schools a no-brainer.
Good point Matt. Yeah, I believe some kids do get it, but that's normal. The reality is they aren't dying and they aren't getting very sick. It's a cold virus. It's not the plague and it's not HIV or something that we had many times before without all this panic, masks, etc. It's just a new cold virus. We have 4 other strains, this is #5. Unfortunately, it's all political and while this is all happening, our freedoms are being taken away one by one. We should be ANGRY and we should be speaking out.
I was blind to all this in the beginning. I took everything being told to me as the truth, give or take a little, everyone should always be a little skeptical. I quickly found myself going along with the narrative. This wasn't my first rabbit hole, but it did lead to being here, wondering the truth about covid. I have come to realization that this is a "political" virus. I agree that this is just another cold/respiratory illness. I've seen it compared to tuberculosis. Anyways, going back to your point, I think it only takes a handful of students getting sick to fuel the fire. It's easy to pull at the heart strings of a parent when you fear for your child. Fear. We're constantly controlled by it. I could go on, but in short, all it took was for a student to get it and once again the narrative and fear can be pushed. I just hope more people wake up like I did before it's too late.
Well in this country the blue states along with the super biased leftist media is doing it all for one reason while lying about the numbers of deaths. All so they can keep things in chaos hoping people will vote for a man with dementia over a man who they hate. This is all about politics and power.
Ok, Peter Harris has been officially ID'd as a Troll. Apparently, I have more than answered his questions, so he has resorted to nothing more than a spouting more nonsense. Still no answers to my questions, however. He brings nothing to the table and provides no empirical evidence or data. He has used the euphemism of a Court Jester and it suits him. I will defer to someone with a capacity for a data based, cogent, conversation. Checkmate!
Yep, as I suspected all along (wasn't difficult), you had nothing to this debate, other than your own deluded beliefs that you are a "scientist."
yep, Peter Harris is an obvious troll
Again Mr Ed, pot-kettle.
With your pot-kettle comment you admit you are a troll then. Not that we need your validation on that point
Hahaha ha, you're just too gormless to realise you're making yourself look stupid.
Who wrote this garbage?
It lacks rigor, integrity and is full of lies by omission.
How about you look at New Zealand?
Hard Lockdown.... and better results than any country in the world.
New Zealand had the benefit of being remote islands with plenty of warning. The "better results" you speak of came down to good luck and shutting down international entry. What will happen when NZ re-opens? How long can it remain closed to the rest of the world? You talk about "rigor, integrity and ... lies by omission" but offer no rebuttal to the facts raised in the article. Show us the "lies of omission" - put up or shut up.
More rambling nonsense... Let's tackle your first point, where is your evidence of the "remote Islands" advantage?
Hilarious...
Im in NZ. We are in lock down AGAIN today!! Of any country we are privileged have the best possible geographic., you can't do what we have else where and shouldn't preach it.
And now we hide here like frightened little children, good on Sweden for facing up and "growing a pair".
When did our country become so soft.
Sure you are Paul... 102 days without community infection. And you're blithering?
I also live in NZ, Wellington.
We were first told back in March that we would be "flattening the curve" .. But then the strategy changed to "Complete elimination".
I knew this would be doomed to fail.
I am amazed at how long it takes people to realize that this the worst strategy there could possibly be ! I repeat, the WORST !
I find it so stupid that I have either gone insane or I must have been asleep somehow for several decades and I now live in Idiocracy (see the movie).
This strategy means that every time the virus re-emerges, it triggers a lockdown response to eliminate it again.. and this is repeated as often as needed.
What is going to happen to the society if we go into a new lockdown every 3 months ??
We have already gone from 20% GDP debt ratio to 60% in just 4 weeks back in March for NOTHING !!! And now we repeat the same experiment..
I guess most people need to be going hungry or have their loved ones go into misery before realizing how insane, and criminal, the political response to this whole thing is.
I’m in New Zealand. We’re in lockdown again and can no longer be seen as a success. That hard lockdown has resulted in many other deaths including suicides. They’re beating each other up panic buying at the supermarkets. Mass exodus out of Auckland where they’re all being turned back by police checkpoints. It’s a mess!
You're a New Zealander? Whereabouts in New Zealand?
There are some indications that there has been community transmission going on here for quite some time. (RT)PCR testing does not even begin to show the full picture as you will well know if you've been paying attention to anything scientific but it appears you might have just been relying on our simplistic media (or worse, syndicated global media) for your perspectives.
102 days without infection at what cost and is the response sustainable?
That's all you can manage? You "tackle" my first point with one word "hilarious". You really need to show your working for that conclusion but I'm not expecting much from a man who cannot offer a rebuttal to the facts in the article. Meanwhile, NZ is back into lockdown proving that the lockdown "success" was a temporary illusion.
Actually I will agree with you here in a sense. NZ doesn't have land borders so much easier to isolate. However, the NZ approach to everything is "rules are pretty much optional" which translates into a general high level of incompetence everywhere in society with very few (but notable) exceptions. So indications are, for example, that the latest outbreak was because of relaxed approach to border control and protocols. If so, no surprises there.
Peter Harris .The truth hurts your world view shattered you have been mugged by the black hats...wake up you have been played for a fool. More people died last year from covid18.
Covid 18? Hahaha
Vietnam had a lockdown but moved very quickly out of lockdown when it became evident that SARS-COV-2 was nothing like what we imagined it could be at the outset. Vietnam has had no recorded deaths, so better than NZ.
And Vietnam has 90m people. NZ <5m.
And Vietnam has long shared borders with other countries with different approaches.
They are basically done with SARS-COV-2 but we here in NZ are not. We're throwing money at what many are now realising is an unsustainable fantasy of a policy, based on faith-based mythology from a few personality-experts the government has thrown its weight behind. Complete delusion.
How you make such unsubstantiated and so obviously misguided comments about NZ is I must say pretty interesting. Maybe something that runs very deep?
How about Taiwan? No lockdown, but instantly closed borders. Japan? No lockdown, closed borders. It's almost like open borders are bad.
Madrid wih half swedens population had a severe lockdown . Result was 8.000 dead , i.e. 2000 more than Sweden. NYC. less than Sweden's population has had 23.000 dead. Lombardia in italy about the same population as sweden 16.000 dead.
I’m sorry, sir, but you’re failing to make any converts with your accusations and ad hominem and demands for evidence when you’ve offered little to nothing substantive in that regard. It may serve you to adopt a posture of humility and a willingness to learn from those with whom you disagree.
Ad hominem? Where?
So it's ok to say anything you want, and not provide any evidence?
It's not my argument, and it is up to others to provide their evidence... got it?
Ha ha ha... pot-kettle.
I mentioned New Zealand, did you not see that?
Merely mentioning New Zealand does not constitute substantive evidence. I shouldn't have to point that out, because your comments seem to wish us to believe you are well versed in reason and debate. Clearly, you're not.
"Ha ha ha... pot-kettle."
This kind of response suggests your cortical cap is not involved here. You're all amygdala, or maybe just brain stem. Come at me when you've got something to say that even approaches interesting.
Hahaha, there is always one hypocritical clown in these discussions.
Peter...its you. You are not looking good buddy.
😅
Okay but where is the explanation to what exactly Sweden did? You say they didn’t have lockdowns or masks so the virus just... disappeared? I’m not a journalist, your right, but all I read was you put really scary adjectives in front of organizations and some outlandish accusations that have little to no backing.
Wi did just those things that was evident to be long term effective. Other countries did a lot more, for no good reason other than to show political strength, caused by panic, resulting in economic damange that they now look forward to be compensated for - from Sweden, amongst others.
Look up Michael Levitt's work on this. The virus spreads until it infects all susceptible individuals and then dies out. We understood phenomena. If you do stop it before it gets into the population (NZ, S Korea etc), you can suppress (flatten the curve), but cannot be stopped until it runs its natural course through the population. If you read any of the papers that came out when this first emerged, this dynamic was well understood and the only feasible strategies were to slow down the infection rate so health care wasn't overrun and protect the vulnerable. Most regions failed miserably in the latter objective.
The organizations ARE very "scary" precisely because the "outlandish accusations" happen to be true and have incredibly SOLID evidence behind them. The problem for most, including it would appear you, is that they get their (dis)information from the MSM, which is totally and completely controlled by those behind this plandemic. The pandemic we are now suffering with, and which has caused irreparable damage, is not of a virus. It is a pandemic of false narratives hiding behind a virus being used to destroy economies and the rights and finances of the citizens of this world...considered to be sheople by those behind the plandemic. If you're looking for truth, this is a good site to investigate, but there are many more alternative news sites where you can find all the information you might want or need to find. Perhaps Jordan could list them, but I don't want to presume on his site.
Incredibly Solid evidence like "hydroxychloroquine causes heart problems". I used it for three years in Viet Nam and my heart is fine. I understand that it wouldn't be fair to the globalists and big pharma to come up with a cheap effective cure that would destroy their multi-billion dollar vaccine business.
HCQ is considered safe, with a long history of use.
"incredibly SOLID evidence" AGAINST THEM...ie, that they, the WHO and CDC, are part and parcel of the globalist predator class, controlled by them and by BigPharma that makes hundreds of liability-free $$$$$$ from their vaccines. And yes, HCQ is very safe. I am a physician and had many patients with rheumatoid arthritis and lupus on it. On the other hand, when we talk about treating covid19, we are talking about a virus THAT WAS NEVER EVEN ISOLATED!! So what exactly is being treated? And exactly what are the vaccines being created to defend against? From all i can see, the genetic material extracted from symptomatic patients in China looks identical to normal exosomes that are created by any normal immune system in response to stress or attack. If so, then the vaccines would be gearing up our bodies against something that is NORMAL!
I agree, and it is a typical display of lack of intellect, but high on emotional nonsense, written by far-right "libertarians."
And just look at the inane and unhinged replies, which are completely irrelevant from your talking points.
In short, a massive example of cognitive dissonance.
Umm, I provided evidence for you and I’m a minority scientist and not Republican or far-right. Put your emotions and politics aside and let us deal with this critical life threatening issue in a pure objective sense. What does it matter about someone’s party affiliation when this thing hurt all communities and threatens minority communities the most. If you do not provide any evidence on your own then it is apparent who has the cognitive dissonance.
"I"? And who are you? Some pseudo scientist?
You provided nothing to me, because I haven't spoken to you before... it was a Camron I was referring to...
But of course, just another rambling piece of incoherent nonsense from a make-believe scientist.
Part of Sweden's success in allowing a less severe lock-down must be attributed to its public health policy encouraging Vitamin D supplementation. However, the most recent published studies reveal that the supplementation rates for the elderly in aged-care have been less than 20%, meaning that many at risk old people most at risk have vitamin D deficiency - a major risk factor for bad outcomes including deaths from viral respiratory infections.
Good point... it's one of the facts that the fake journalist who wrote this nonsense, would never acknowledge, or even understand.
Success is a relative term. When compared to the US, the Swedes have been brilliant. When compared to countries similar to themselves, they have been woeful.
Sweden has had 571 deaths per million people, Denmark 107, Norway 47.
If Sweden is a success, than surely the other Scandinavian countries are outstanding successes.
The BBC reports:
>>Various forecasts predict the Swedish economy will still shrink by about 5% this year.
That is less than other countries hit hard by Covid-19, such as Italy, Spain and the UK, but still similar to the rest of Scandinavia.
Sweden's unemployment rate of 9% remains the highest in the Nordics, up from 7.1% in March.<<
They have had more people die than the other Scandinavian countries, but their economy is no better off. Schachtel's article is deliberately misleading.
Wow, you must be some kind of shill or something. Or you just can't face the fact that Sweden didn't follow the New World Order protocol. Nor the Communist U.N or the De population loving WHO. And because they didn't play the farce scheme, you want to invalidate them, and anyone who states the positive aspects of not fear mongering or falling into this ELITE trap. Wow, you must feel real smart.
>Wow, you must feel real smart.
Why thank you gatto. I do.
But....
>And because they didn't play the farce scheme, you want to invalidate them,
No, I don't. What I am trying to do is to point out that they have allowed almost 5000 people to die *unnecessarily*. See below for the discussion. Do please note the section that quotes the architect of Sweden's scheme, Anders Tegnell.
>Man behind Sweden's controversial coronavirus strategy admits mistakes
Now, Tegnell has for the first time admitted publicly that the strategy is resulting in too many deaths.
"Clearly, there is potential for improvement in what we have done in Sweden," he said.<
(*) unnecessarily : in a way that is avoidable; needlessly.
Well, I agree with you there, I don't think anybody has handled this correctly because I believe that it's possibly just a ( DIFFERENT STRONGER FOR SOME AGES AND COMPRISED HEALTH ) strain of Sars2. That said, there are other treatments out there that could have saved thousands of lives whom ACTUALLY had C19 and the un necessary deaths in senior homes and others that passed because they couldn't even get their cancer treatments etc because of the farce of the hospitals being full and keeping them vacant for that rush of millions of sick people, which never happened. Between treating the people wrong and faulty tests, I believe they have achieved what they set out to do. Have more deaths un necessarily, create and continue their fear porn, and an added bit of de population in the process and finally hide all the money they've stolen and wasted from the hard working people so they can do their wonderful re set. So, it's sad all around. Sorry for being nasty, it just breaks my heart and makes me upset at the lies and shows and malpractice and pseudoscience these monsters have done. :)
Note to all: Most deaths in Sweden from COVID19 (60+%) were in care homes for the eldely.
Swedish care homes are predominantly much larger buildings with 100s of residents to a building compared to Denmark's many more care homes which are smaller in size with only a few dozen residents per building. Therefore any infection in Swedish care homes is going
to result in a larger impact on fatality rates than in Danish care homes. This gross error in judgement has subsequently been acknowledged by Swedish authorites now. This is the
key to understanding the disparity in Nordic countries regarding COVID19 fatality rates.
No lockdown means herd immunity faster for a virus going through a population.
John Nicholson.
John
The key to understanding herd immunity is that the proportion of the population that has to be infected by the disease, and retain antibodies, is given by the formula
% = 100 - (100/Ro)
where Ro is the infection rate on an unprotected population, ie the average number of people that each infected person will transmit the disease to.
The Ro value for Covid19 is around 2.2. Do the maths and 70% of the population has to acquire, and retain, the Covid antibodies before there can be herd immunity.
Studies show that people who have been infected start to lose their antibodies after as little as 90 days. There will be no herd immunity, John. Surveys in the US have 30% of respondents saying that they will not use a vaccine that is offered.
Check this from Lancet on the number of Stockholm residents with antibodies:
>COVID-19—a very visible pandemic
... community estimates range from 7·5% to 10%, and suggest considerable clustering.<
Oops.
So what's your strategy Sam? Live in perpetual fear? Start a "war on sickness?" What's the end game here Sam?
Hi Ryan.
There is no end game possible until people understand the full extent of the problem, and the alternatives that are available.
If the majority of the people are in favour of a single approach, then I would see that their Government is obliged to go with it. If the virus persists for years, as some suggest, perhaps this will become an election issue.
So - education, then choosing.
One point that nobody here has commented on is that we are only part way through the epidemic. Questions that cannot be resolved at this stage are:
* Are we at the end of the first wave and will the subsequent events be milder? That is the best case, but is it true?
* Are the people who have recovered from the disease going to suffer any side effects from having had it? There are reports that up to half of patients treated for the virus in intensive care units (ICUs) may be left with ‘persistent physical, cognitive and psychological impairments’, including chronic fatigue.
If this is substantiated, it may influence the debate.
I do admire your use of emotive terms to try and influence the discussion. "Live in perpetual fear". Good one!
I live in New Zealand. Here, people are starting to realise they are staring at a future of perpetual fear, created by idiotic and short-term politicians.
My sense is SARS-COV-2 will be with us indefinitely. Elimination/isolation is utterly unsustainable.
> My sense is SARS-COV-2 ...
Oh, mc. You just cannot help yourself, can you? Do you run a fortune telling business in NZ?
I have used no (little?) rhetoric. Please check above and apologise.
"Studies show" lots of things.
It's instructive to get your head out of the weeds sometimes and look at reality.
Why do so few people get SARS-COV-2, and yet the cases go down and the deaths nosedive beyond a point?
The answer to this will allow you to answer your own questions.
Have a good weekend, mc.
>Wow are you really not aware of Lancetgate,
Thank you, Captain Obvious.
>They are disgraced and not credible.
Bovine excrement. This one slip does not invalidate their other work, as you know.
>the Lancet disinformation campaign against HQCl+zinc is responsible for millions of deaths
We will see. The hcqtrial paper looks interesting, and but we await to subsequent work. In Australia four studies into HCQ were initiated; three were abandoned due to indeterminate results, the remaining study is proceeding.
>>A gold standard, multicentre, randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial to determine whether the drug hydroxychloroquine is an effective prevention against COVID-19 is now underway in Australia.<<
https://www.wehi.edu.au/news/illuminate-newsletter/june-2020/covid-prevention-trial
PS: You do know that this response from you is totally irrelevant to Schachtel's paper?
You forget that the other skandis must keep to their strategy of lockdown while Sweden is normal again
And *you* are ignoring the fact that whereas Norway and Denmark, combined population 11.3 million, have had 880 Covid 19 deaths between them, Sweden, with 10 million people, have had 5766. The difference is equivalent to the death toll in 9/11 plus 6 fully laden jets crashing.
I await your explanation for the relatives of the deceased of why being "normal" again is better than their loved ones still being alive.
Bwahahaha. You do realize that EVERY aspect of society has tradeoffs in terms of lives, right? In the USA over 200,000 people a year die from preventable medical error. Kids are killed in family (backyard) pools more often than from gunshots. The number of people killed and injured on roadways is staggering.
Do we shut down the highway system to respect the families of those who died in traffic accidents?
So why should we shut down an entire economy, churches, etc, because of a few flu deaths?
People like you are insane.
jim : you had me at Bwahahaha
Exactly. People have lost their minds. 80,000 people die each week in the United States. People die. If we were concerned about flu deaths, then we should all just end it right here and now because this is a fact of life. Should we shut down driving? What about smokers? Why can they be "free" to smoke and get lung disease so we have to protect them? Also, the antibodies is a non-starter because no matter what you get, antibodies go away....that's why you have T-CELLS....it remembers. Funny how the body already knows how to deal with this.
A strong immune system is the best "cure" that we have. Live healthy, exercise, eat a balanced diet, get enough sleep and DON'T listen to the nay-sayers.
You obviously have no sense of statistics or how diseases spread. The dynamics in larger populations, especially of high density, are quite different. Other factors such as mobility, cluster scale, etc. are all highly relevant, as are the nature of inward and outgoing travel. A couple of quite random (in the sense of timing, etc.) differences at the beginning of such an epidemic translate to potentially huge outcomes between regions and countries. For example, one region may have a different age demographic and therefore massively skew outcomes.
Your parallel with 9/11 is emotive nonsense.
Thank you for your comment, mc.
>You obviously have no ...
Alas, you lost me at this point.
However, I did note this:
>Your parallel with 9/11 is emotive nonsense.
Gosh, what a put down. I should emphasise that this is your opinion, and you are fully entitled to it, but it is no more, and no less valid that mine.
What I intended, but perhaps did not adequately convey, was to give a perspective of just how many people 5000 is. Please note that the numerical comparison is completely true, 5000 is the entire 9/11 plus 6 fully laden jets.
Check this, from a person who I think, but certainly cannot prove, could be one of your soulmates:
>
Joe WhiteAug 12
Bottom line- Even if 5 MILLION DIE, out of 8 BILLION, whats the problem?
<
What a cutie. Ungrammatical and callous.
Sam...Sweden got it right. End of story.
>Sam...Sweden got it right. End of story.
Hey, ant.
I do admire your concise summation of the situation.
But, and this is a big one, can we agree that the Swedes have lost nearly 5000 more citizens than the combined tallies of Denmark and Norway? Are we also agreed that the Swedish economy all of these three economies are predicted to take a 7% hit to GDP, meaning that there has been only pain from Sweden's approach, and no gain?
And can we also agree that the architect of Sweden's policy, Anders Tegnell, has begun to rethink his 'right' strategy?
>Man behind Sweden's controversial coronavirus strategy admits mistakes
Now, Tegnell has for the first time admitted publicly that the strategy is resulting in too many deaths.
"Clearly, there is potential for improvement in what we have done in Sweden," he said.<
As for 'Swedes have more freedom', check this:
> with many other European Union countries now rolling back their lockdowns after appearing to bring COVID-19 under control, there are signs that Sweden may be left behind. That includes the freedom of movement of its citizens, as some EU countries restrict access to people coming from what are deemed high-risk COVID zones.<
Any thoughts on these aspects, or have we exhausted your repertoire?
Is that "5000 more deaths" per capita?
Populations of Denmark + Norway = 1.1 * Population of Sweden.
Comparing the actual figures, and therefore slightly understating the Swedish position.
>so Sweden lost 5,000 drains on their already burdened social security system.
Eventually, Isabel, *you* will be infirm. Will you have amended your philosophy by then?
Until then, how is your charity work going?
I did not realise that you had returned from your Medicines Sans Frontiers work. We should catch up soon!
>Less deaths in Denmark and Norway proves nothing.
Damn! And here I was thinking that fewer (not less) deaths meant a more effective treatment. Now I think on it, I still believe that.
"When the whole world is rushing towards a cliff, the one running opposite is seen as insane."
How philosophical. An alternative would be, 'When the whole country is rushing towards safety, the one running opposite is the one that wants to vote for Trump'
Your joking there are less deaths from covi19 then from the flu last year?
We don't have the data quite yet but it will be very little different. Either less than in the previous years, seasonally-speaking, the same or not much more.
Also, consider that if a year has lower deaths than average, the population susceptible to flu the following year is larger, so one would expect a spike in deaths comparatively-speaking.
Where is your evidence?
This is a silly comment.
Comparing deaths is a fools game, except against background all-cause deaths over time for specific countries, which allows one to filter out the impact that SARS-COV-2 had that was not usual.
The EUROMOMO stats will soon provide a much fuller picture and my sense is that this will show that this virus had nowhere near, like next level nowhere near, the impact that so-called experts everywhere (except Sweden) predicted.
>and my sense is that this
What you are saying, mc, is that you are guessing.
Today's figures:
21 Million cases, 762K deaths.
>But it’s obvious you are yet another disingenuous ideologue, virtue Signaling without any evidence to support your constantly moving political goal posts.
Am I keeping you from Brietbart?
My goalposts have remained in their original position. The Swedish approach has produced
. no economic benefit
. more personal freedom in their own country, possibly less in adjoining countries.
. many times more deaths, or, as you endearingly termed them, drains on their [The Swedish] already burdened social security system.
I am embarrassed to be on the same blog as you.
But ..
You will need more than personal attacks to alter the above.
Again, a wild and unsubstantiated claim... and I think you mean uncontrolled.
The bbc is no longer a reliable source in this.
When u loss ur job in New Zealand u still have healthcare...when u lose ur job in America you either go into extreme debt or die. Our politician don’t care about us ... they’re flipping greedy ....that’s the problem.
So true. I doubt whether the author of this garbage will give you a thumbs up for that rational and humane comment.
Finally! A voice of reason.
If almost 6000 death & one of the highest death rate per capita in the world is a success, lets wait for the 2nd wave. Sweden will be a super duper success
Read the article. I acknowledge that they did not sufficiently protect their senior care centers, which account for the majority of the COVID deaths in Sweden. The general population, which would be impacted by their open society model, was largely not harmed by the virus, proving their strategy sufficient in fighting the pandemic.
Sweden has 300,000 more people then Michigan and has lower deaths and cases. Michigan had the strictest lockdown. Why aren't the numbers drastically different?
Why indeed. Guess Whitmer's science that guides policy not so scientific after all. Some numbers are drastically different...unemployment Michigan 14.8% and Sweden 9.3% for June. Freedom and long term mental health much better in Sweden I dare say.
We seem to have a new strain of flu every that "requires" a new vaccine. They won't let us use hydroxychloroquine. I wonder why. Is it possible that they know that HCQ would control all of the viruses and we wouldn't need any of their expensive "vaccines"?
Sorry, I left out the word "year" between "every" and "that" and I don't see any way to edit my comment.
They well be fine because second wave will be less because there population will have developed more heard immunity. But having said that time will tell!
Wrong. USA deaths per million = 585, Sweden=574.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/
Heck, Governor Cuomo doubled that in senior home deaths!
Simplistic. Sweden was unlucky to experience a massive influx of infections via people returning to Stockholm where there is a huge population of foreign-origin Swedish residents, many of whom are Somali, who are at high disk for SARS-COV-2, and live in a relatively dense, modern European city. There are a number of factors that combined here with the result that by the time Sweden (and the world) realised what was happening, this virus had already deeply penetrated the Stockholm area.
Additionally, at the same time the virus was transferred to aged care. Swedish care homes are significant in scale and the ethnically-diverse worker population. The relatively long incubation meant that again Sweden was playing catch up and by the time old, frail people become symptomatic, there is very little that can be done. This is why in every country that has seasons, influenza takes a significant number of people each year, despite humans having lived with influenza forever.
Resist the temptation to judge prematurely: in a year or two, Ratgazz might look back and realise that Sweden learned quickly from its very obvious (especially in hindsight) mistakes and decided on a longer-term strategy than pretty much any other country. That takes courage and determination, not least on behalf of the people steering Sweden's overall strategy.
They decided not to experiment on their population by trying practices that had never been used. You do not quarantine healthy individuals.
I think we saved worldwide more lives (young lives) in traffic alone thanks to the lockdowns then the average 82 years olds deaths saved during the period......
In Malaysia alone they probably saved 3000 during six months. Way above the 600 plus that died in the country of Covid so far. Then a huge number of people died of untreated or delayed life threatening ailments and suicides (many still to come when finally all the smaller and bigger businesses fall over, and the people are sacked) Stock market crash imminent, no doubt, etc etc.
Clinics, hospitals, quite a few also bankrupt, even doctors and nurses out of work.
Well done all the slick politician policymakers and hangers on! There was not a lot of common sense loud voiced opposition. Very human indeed. Maybe Trump was right all the way.
Oepsie! Did I say something wrong now???? Naaaah. I said maybe......
Peter is a troll
Evidence just see his trolls
Hello Sam, Thank you for your comments, which may be valid, although somewhat condecending which I shan't stoop to. 'Some Studies' is nebulous and lacking in context with possibly many other such data which may contradict 'some studies.' Hence I'm not convinced by your reply without discussing it with micro biology professionals. On a wider point pertaining to the danger
of COVID19 (not yet isolated via the Robert Koch postulates) I fear people cannot see the woods for the trees. COVID19 is nowhere near the danger it is hyped up to be, please see expert analyses as follows below:
Some observations :
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Professor Denis Rancourt:
Everything most important about COVID;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVK0QKxhzdM
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Prof. Dr. Sucharit Bhakdi;
Letter to Chancellor Merkel;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsExPrHCHbw&t=34s
Corona virus COVID-19- hype and hysteria? Demystification of the nightmare!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBB9bA-gXL4
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Dr. John Ioannidis announces the results of his serology study in Santa Clara, California. The study is attached below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_Z9AC9-oyg
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Bye.
>Hello Sam, Thank you for your comments, which may be valid, although somewhat condecending which I shan't stoop to.
If you reread what you have written, John, you will discover that you already have.
Let's just move on. You have cited a number of facetube references. Sadly, I only ever look at reviewed papers. So, thanks, but no thanks. The scientific world is full of enough barrow pushers, and I need to have a peer review the content before bothering. Not saying that they, your references, are wrong, but you will acknowledge that you cannot guarantee that they are correct.
For details on the meaning of the Ro value, google this:
What Is R0? Gauging Contagious Infections
Note that the figure for Covid19 has been upgraded from 2.2 to 5.7, putting the percentage of the people who would have to be protected from the virus to 85+% for herd immunity to occur.
And, and, your original post contained:
>>Swedish care homes are predominantly much larger buildings with 100s of residents to a building compared to Denmark's many more care homes which are smaller in size with only a few dozen residents per building. Therefore any infection in Swedish care homes is going
to result in a larger impact on fatality rates than in Danish care homes. <<
I am thinking that this is a product of your vivid imagination. I am afraid that it is a case of cite references or retract. Please, please, no youtube musings.
Bottom line- Even if 5 MILLION DIE, out of 8 BILLION, whats the problem? 60 MILLION died just in Word War 2. In fact it was to fight for freedom and against a "One World Order". It did not DESTROY the world economy, cause poverty or creat totalitarian control or loss of freedom like the Cov-Con job has been designed to do. End of every argument. PS the UN was based on Hitlers design for world domination.
Oh..and YES , if it means losing a friend or loved one, so be it. They are are like brave soldiers and better dead than imprisoned as a slave to Totalitarian Communism. I have lost 4 friends and family DUE TO The LOCKDOWN (cancelled hospital treatments etc). Where are stats on the effect of the "CURE" vs the Virus? We saw the same attempt with swine flu..attempted world ending virus...biggest Medical hoax since Covid19..and surprise..exactly the same people involved
i want to move there.. obviously that's just wishful thinking maybe if I were in 20's I would have.. but too late now.. WHY can't US do the same.. why has our government sold its people to Big Pharma..